GunAuction Forum - SHILL BIDDERS
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|Buyer: 5thcommjarhead(62-0-0)||Post#11 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 07:27:43|
|Okay, we've all seen stuff on here that we just CAN'T live without, right? I mean, we'll just DIE if we don't win the auction. Personally, I just can't see it. If you've done your homework, know approximately what the item is worth and what you're willing to pay for it, then bid that much and if you're outbid by someone, a shill or not, then strike if off as bad luck or bad business and move on.
Let your own good sense of the worth of the item be your guide and don't get caught up in the competitiveness of the auction and you'll come away feeling you got a reasonable deal every time - even if you didn't win the auction.
|Seller: axolotl(330-0-0)||Post#12 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 08:46:21|
|Of course any system to prevent shill bidding can be circumvented but why? If a seller list an item and uses a shill bidder and he wins, he has to pay the AA fees associated with the sale. Or file a claim for a non-paying bidder in which case his deception becomes more obvious. Either way he loses. Its much easier to list an item with a reserve. And for a buyer to bid too much for an item is his own fault. axolotl|
|Seller: Petesguns(1009-0-0)||Post#13 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 09:21:35|
|Shill bidding takes place every day on every site on the internet. Sometimes it is the seller having two, three or four accounts that they use. Sometimes it is a friend of the seller placing a bid for them to drive the price up. Sometimes it is a complex scheme that defies the best experts. Sometimes it can be caught and sometimes not. BUT, I caution anyone to be wary of claiming that if a bid from a different member ID comes into the AA system from the same IP address as the seller, or the same physical address, that it constitutes shill bidding. We have several computers in our shop. When we put an item onto the auction, it is 99% of the time at a penny, so it gets a bid almost immediately. We also have customers who come into the shop who would like to buy some of these items. As they have bids, I cannot end the auction. I instruct them that they have to place a bid on the site. SOME of these customers are signed up as members on the spot, and place a bid, using my computer. SOME of them are already members and use our one of computers to place a bid. Trapper, you know this as you have used my computers to access the auctions sometimes when you come in to the shop. We allow ANY member of ANY of the auction sites to use our computers to access and place bids on anything. One way that I can see to determine if there are shill bids being placed is to require a valid credit card to be placed on file when creating an account as a buyer OR seller. Such credit card has it's owner's info attached to it. If an auction gets a bid from a member whose credit card info matches the info of the seller, well, then, that sure would appear to be a shill bid. With the power of the computers available today, I am sure it would be no big deal to automatically compare member's ID's to the info of their credit card to see if multiple bids on an item were from the same person, even though there are different member ID's and even credit card numbers. Of course, there would have to be enough evidence of shill bidding for AA management to want to address it by establishing a check mechanism, and there would also have to be a change in AA's current policy to require members to have to have to keep a current credit card on file as a BUYER as well as a seller. Such requirement of having to have buyers provide a credit card, and have that card charged a buck to establish validity, would also go a LONG way to preventing the deadbeat bidders that sign up using fraudulent info. But, THAT is a 'nother problem entirely that will ALSO require AA to decide that it exists in a degree serious enough to address.|
|Seller: Hartwell Gun(1105-1-2)||Post#14 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 10:40:42|
|I think shill bidders would be more of a live auction problem than here at on line auction.Most folks know just about what they will spend for a giving item.If someone outbids you you it is because they are just willing to pay more for the item than you,not usually a shill involved.If a seller is working a shill i am sure AA knows just what to look for,and how determine it,and deal with it.Some people lose a item,from the shallow wallet syndrome,and then get paranoid and call it a shill deal,makes them feel better to cry foul,i guess.JMHO|
|Seller: Sportsmanssupply(5145-0-4)||Post#15 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 11:44:49|
|(no avatar)||Shill bidders exist on live auctions because the seller has a very valid fear of products being sold below market value caused mainly by a poor audience of buyers. Where there is a large audience, shill bidders need not exist. As a penny auctioneer on AA I'm showing my wares to a very large and eager audience. Who needs shill bidders in that environment? What purpose would they serve other than to chase away a real buyer? JMVHO|
|Seller: Bubba J(67-0-0)||Post#16 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 14:45:34|
|Petesguns: Thank you for your comments. I hope they help Trapper understand where I was coming from.
Grant: If a seller has an item listed, especially one on consignment with certain expectations from the consignee, that seller would very much want the price to be in th ball park of the consignee's expectations. If towards the end of the auction if the price appears not to reach this point, then shill bidding could and would help. All parties involved in this type of scheme would have to know prices and what is and is not reasonable in order to not over bid. I see this happening with all sizes of auctons be them live or on line. Shill bidding, used appropriatly and sparingly, does seem to work for the unscrupulous individuals who practice it. Just sharing my thoughs on the subject.
|Seller: Hagrid(41-0-0)||Post#17 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 17:57:09|
|If you are selling on consignment and the owner has a set price in mind, would'nt you be better served using a reserve or basic with a starting price at the owners minimum? Trapper|
|Seller: Petesguns(1009-0-0)||Post#18 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 18:58:54|
|When we list an item that is a consignment, unless the owner agrees to, and understands the effectiveness of a Penny Auction, we always use a starting price. THEN, when the item doesn't sell, we convince the owner to let us list it at a penny, and 95+% of the time, it sells for more than the originally listed starting price. I DID list a consigned item once a couple years ago, and caught the owner bidding on it. Gladly, his bid had no effect on the outcome, but he was quickly invited to find a different dealer to do his selling for him. He has found a different dealer in our area. Good luck to him AND that dealer.|
|Seller: Bubba J(67-0-0)||Post#19 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 20:24:38|
|Hagrid: There are many here on AA that have stated that when they see a reserve on an auction they just pass it by without giving it a second thought. In my thread "Classified Ad" I mentioned this. I am not picking on you or singling you out with the below statement, however...................... to each their own.
Not wishing to sound like a knot head, or condescending, but I have noticed that many members on AA, especially the more senior ones, are very narrow minded with many of them having a severe case of tunnel vision and seemingly intimidated by any types of change. It is like what I ran into time after time when heading up our Safety Steering Team at work before I retired. "BUT WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT THAT WAY".
|Former Seller: Kan Do Arms(70-0-0)||Post#20 - Posted: 05/15/2009 at 22:12:11|
|(no avatar)||i have been working on a few wingbone callers maybe i have been sucking on this caller and it made me say all those harbole things about shrill bidders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! kelly|