When the motion lights turn on in front of our place it lights it up like daylight.  I made one more step onto the porch and BING the front area was all lit up, At that point I realized it was not a coyote but a fox with some of my laying hens feathers dangling from it's mouth. 

At about the same time I thought "wow this fox doesn't even know I'm here" I noticed why... It was 100% focused on a hen that it or it's buddy's had already maimed, She was a good hen also!  I crouched down, Drew my 45acp loaded with Silvertips and thought humm.. How close can I get to this thing.  My work vehicle was parked about 15 feet from it, I slowly low walked to the rear axle of my work vehicle,cocked my 45 for a single action trigger press slowly looked up and I was surprised to see the fox still in the same position just fixated on my hurt hen.  Well the rest is history, I plugged that little bitch at 15 feet square in the chest.

Now the interesting part.  I had no time to skin it out at that time, as cool as my boss is she would not be OK with me being late because I needed to skin out a fox that had a field day with my chickens.  I took the 20lb ( at most ) female fox and put her in a peacefully position under a ceder tree and left os note for my family.

By the time I got off work, got home and started to skin it out it was too late, the 95+ degree temp had already go to work on her and it was pretty bad, I did decide to find out what type of penetration I got and to try and recover the bullet.  Mind you I shot this fox at 15 feet square in the chest, I recover the bullet 4 inches into it's chest!  Thats right.. I got a whopping 4" of penetration at 15" from the Winchester silvertip ammo in 45acp.  I'd been caring this ammo for self defense every day up to this point.  Now the inside of this hen killing machine was like jelly, you couldn't tell what was what in the fist 1/4 of that critter but only 4" of penetration on a 20lb dog?  WTF 

so I unloaded my three mags of that ammo and replaced it with some PDX1.

I can't wait to do some more experimentation but if this is how a 45acp acts across the board with hollow point ammo I may need to switch to the 40 S&W wound and maim or even the +p 9mm Critical defense.  I also could get the 10mm upper slide and mag for my 45 frame and call it good.

Just though I would share this little story and would like to hear of you all have had any similarly disappointing results from so called "personal defense ammo".

Also the recovered bullet was separated from the jacket, The combined wight of the jacket and lead was 173grs.  Pretty good weight retention but again only 4".  Maybe I'm expecting to much from my ammo but the reviews of this ammo do not match what I had experienced with a very dainty little animal, Glad I never had to use it on a hopped up bad guy weighing 200+ lbs.

I was at my Mom's home deep in the east Texas woods between Burkville and Hemphill. Someone had dumped a mutt out on the hiway and it was preying on Mom's chickens. As I was driving out one afternoon on the dirt road I saw it hiding in the tall grass. I stopped my truck and shot it straight into the front of it's chest with my Colt Combat Commander in 9mm. I don't remember what brand name the ammo was, but I do know they were hollow points. The dog was about 35 or 40 lbs and between 20 and 25 feet from me. He just sat back on his haunches and rolled over. I had expected him to be knocked back some. So I was surprised and disappointed at the lack of knock down power. I'd like to hear a story about someone witnessing some real knock down and what ammo did it.

That is why I shoot fmj in every handgun I have with a bbl  less than 4 inches. The bullets don't have enough distance to reach "hp" working velocity.

I read somewhere, that it takes a "hp" to be traveling abt 900fps to work as designed, out of a short bbl pistol, the velocity will be in the 700-850 fps range.

I shot a 30 lb boar coon at 20-25 ft with a Glock 19, 9mm 115gr fmj, standard velocity. It hit just about in the left shoulder , and, exited abt half an inch to the right of his rectum, dropped in his tracks.

I belive in complete penetration, 2 holes to bleed out of. I have never been pleased with "HP ammo preformance out of a short bbl handgun.

Therefore, my bullets, traveling at 800fps, or less, will most likely punch a very deep hole. Longer bbl, different story all together, the HP's will start to do what they do, as they will be kickin along at a higher speed. JMO. WALI......................

Johnny; there is no such thing as `knock down`. Physics tells us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If any cartridge would  knock someone down it would also knock the shooter down. What most people see and believe is knock down is simply muscle contractions in reaction to the bullet strike. If you sit on a thumbtack you will jump but the tack has no `knockdown power. OMJ; the winchester silvertip hollowpoint has a poor reputation in law enforcement in all calibers and is rarely used and then mostly because alternatives are not available. Cor-Bon is mostly recommended and if available Cor-Bons Powerball is 100% reliable because of the phenoloc ball in the hollowpoint that gives positive feeding and keeps the hollowpoint from collapsing in on itself. I had some of crew go to Kosavo and Corbon supplied some powerball for real world testing and my people came back requesting it for duty use before it was readily available.  Good stuff. axolotl

For pest control call 1-800-ass- splat--- wife is rough on armidillos and squirrels,but weapon would be tough to holster. Shot coyote about 15 yds with 4in redhawk 200gr hornady jhp in front of 18 grs of accurate powder. I hit him dead in chest and it stopped 3/4 of way through and made mush. I would have thought it would have gone through.

Wali, I got Really good expansion in my experience ( I'll post pics of the bullet) but just very little penetration.

Axo, Thanks for the info, Here is my "issue" with power ball ammo, I know it's got a great rep, but what about when I need to shoot through concealment or light cover? I now they make two different types ( summer and winter I call them) but what about when I need to penetrate a car door, or some something to that affect?  I see what you have recommend but what are your experiences with the Hornady Critical defense if any?

I can not legally carry and don't want to carry my hand loads but at home I do have my hand loads loaded with frangible in my none carry guns.

Have to agree with AX, in all the test results i have read the Silver Tips are down the list in the also ran column.Always Hydra shok and Carbon are always finish either first or second.

OMJ; no hollowpoint will give acceptable reliable penetration on car doors, specially on the older heavily built cars that frequent the ghetto. I mix my ammo with hardball. The round in the barrel is powerball. The top three rounds in the mag are hardball followed by alternating the two. Spare mags are pure hardball as i conclude both me and any opponents will have made cover by then. I have small supply of the old Hornasdy 230 gr flat point hardball. You have shot enough to observe that flat point bullets leave a cookie cutter type hole in a target. They react the same on tissue allowing blood leakage and air passage into the wound cavity. Air in the body cavity will make the lungs collapse and shut down oxygen supply to the system therefore shutting everything down. A small point i admit but i want it on my side. A bit gruesome to talk about but then this is not a pleasant topic. The Hornady flat point has been discontinued but there are some other flat point hardball cartridges out there. They are of a lighter weight but still give the same results. axolotl

More great Info Axo, THANKS!

Unfortunately here in CA they look down on us carrying hard ball ammo for personal defense, It's not banned but the lawyer's are concerned with over penetration and the potential for innocents of been struck with a through and through shot.  We know we should always be aware of our shots and factor in the over penetration but the prosecuting side will defiantly weigh in on the fact that solids were used for SD. 

I like the idea of staggering rounds and you are 100% correct in that I'll be finding cover or concealment after the first few rounds and then the more solid type of projectiles would come in to play.  Not that you suggested it but the idea of doing an unnecessary mag change in the middle of a fire fight just to fire different projectiles down range is out of the question.  I train on slide lock re-loads but also set up scenarios where their could be a "pause" in the action and to retain my partial mag and top the handgun off with a fresh mag.  I have an attorney that will represent us if the time ever comes if I or my family need to use deadly force to protect our selfs or our loved ones and he is of the side of using what the police use in my specific area, PDX1.  But he also agrees in " I'd rather be judged my 12 then carried by 6 ". 

  Either way in the state I live in things will get messy if I need to use deadly force but I'm re-thinking things after the fox incident.  Had that been a mountain lion... we'll I'd rather not even go there. LOL

Wally world carries the Hydra-shok ammo, I just need to stop farting around and do some testing so I feel confident in what I'm carrying. 

I was given the silver tips and had read some good things about them that they were able to dump a tremendous amount of energy very quickly but what good does that do if they never enter the chest cavity?  As far as a face shot I could never see them getting past the teeth and jaw bone.  SO yep... I now have some more range ammo! LOL

What an eye opener!